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146755-making-ws-more-alt-friendly-d
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- :lol: Instant amp+abilities too? | |} ---- ---- ---- dont be silly now | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Please no, never. This is one of the things that have come about in recent years that I am 100% against. I've already gone into why in other threads, not gonna start it up here. Dyes would be nice. Mounts and pets, too, I spose. As for Titles and Achievements though, I've never liked that idea. Did you earn it on that character? No? Then I don't really count it as you know how to do it on that character/have done it on that char (that's just my preference though, no point makin a stink against it.) A reputation boost would be nice for alts, but I don't like the idea of alts automatically have full reputation with things your Main had. I don't like the thought of just one big shared bank...maybe if each char still had its own bank but you also had a smaller (but expandable) account storage. | |} ---- ---- That could get really expensive. If one alt takes a dirt nap I have to repair the gear on all my alts? No thanks. | |} ---- ---- The bots would love that. | |} ---- I thought that SWTOR had account wide rep. I never really paid much attention to it, but i just know that rep token turn ins are shared across all characters. But even if account wide rep has never been done in any game, they could still do something similar to what WoW did during MoP. Where character A gains rep with a faction and once they get exalted/maxed out on that one rep then on any alts rep gains on that same faction is increased by like 100%. Anyways i had a few ideas of my own for alt play but they would require a lot more time and effort on CRB's part and it isnt like your guys suggestions which basically just reward players with features. I would like to see multiple leveling paths throughout the game similar to how WoW has multiple zones you can level in for certain level brackets. Like at level 22 instead of only being able to go to Whitevale we have the option to go to Whitevale or 2 other zones. That way on one toon i could go to Whitevale, on another i could take a different path and on another i could take another path. Probably not going to happen though, especially now that the game is F2P. They should have made the game that way on release because i dont think any game will ever do something like that after a game has already been out. | |} ---- This has been my NUMBER ONE complaint/request about WildStar since I was invited to one of the earliest closed betas, over two years ago. As a rabid Altoholic, I am bored to tears of Whitevale onwards. It's like this little head-game I have to play against myself once I hit level 22 - how many different things I can do or skip until I hit 50. Admittedly, Whitevale, Farside and Malgrave are favorite zones of mine, so they get done. Wilderrun and the GrimBlightVaultHavens can suck it. I do everything I can think of to earn XP fast enough to not have to sit through that crap another time. | |} ---- Nah. Wilderrun is 1000 times worse. At least Whitevale mixes it up a little bit. There is the snowy areas, the squirg area and the not-icy areas. Wilderrun is a jungle. Part of it is a strain-infected jungle. For one of the largest zones in the game, Wilderrun is awful about not changing ANYTHING from end to the other. And the two little spots that *are* different, only last for *SNAP* that long. Hell on Wilderrun. The Torine are the only things worth a damn there. | |} ---- ---- I've never understood this complaint. I think it's a good idea to have character progression past level cap, other than just gear. Besides, several are not hard to get, like at all. | |} ---- It would make Wildstar way more alt friendly, which is what this thread is about. Edited November 11, 2015 by Thelonious | |} ---- Grr its my stupid autocorrect... i thought i edited it :( | |} ---- Wilderrun is #2 on my list, maybe #3 to that stupid zone back in Vanilla WoW with all the dumb cliffs and bridges. Farside owns bones though. Best zone in the game. | |} ---- A buff to rep gain for alts I wouldn't be against. Never played SWTOR, so I don't really know how their system works. | |} ---- ---- ---- It's not progression, it's a grind and not a particularly fun one. If people felt it were fair they wouldn't spend two weeks PvP'ing to get that grind over and done with ASAP. If you like farming things there's plenty of that to do (Progenitor Access Particles for instance). | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- I'm not sure about currency and bank, but everything else yes! I don't feel like doing attunement runs on every alt. No more grieve once it's achieved. | |} ---- ---- ---- I've never heard of anyone not making another character solely because of Amp/Tiers. Also, while the extra tiers and amps are nice and can help a lot, they are wholly unnecessary. You can clear DS with no extra tiers or amps . As for other suggestions, I like the idea of having an account storage system that we can actually use among or characters. We have the "account inventory" now, but we can't store anything in it that we acquire on our characters with other characters. Even if we left bank slots per-character, it would be nice to have a functioning account bank / inventory system so we could share items with our alts. Mounts / Pets / dyes, I think sharing the in-game obtained ones is a great idea, HOWEVER, Shop Purchased versions should be left character only unless you purchase the account wide versions. The game does have to make money on something, and if you really wan't account bound versions they aren't much more expensive then their single character versions FTMP. As for currency sharing, we already share many currencies (e.g., omnibits, service tokens, fortune coins, cozmic points, etc) I actually think it would be a bad idea to share [ glory / elder gems / renown / prestige ], this would allow players who might be really good on their, let's say Chua Medic, while being not so good on their Chua Engineer... yet could gear / twink a character they barely play with exceptional gear and not actually be prepared to run content or perform adequately on that character. The point of those currencies is mainly progression, and progression shouldn't be skippable just because we already progressed another character / class. I feel the same about Reputation, It shouldn't be shared.... but at the same time (and especially for daily specific zones) we shouldn't need to accrue 32,000 reputation to hit the top tier. Scale the rep accrual down so it's doable with a character in a week or two, so we still get the progression and put in the effort but don't get mind numbingly bored in the process. Edited April 28, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Perhaps not but it's definitely a QoL issue. About 4-6 weeks ago it wasn't so bad because AH prices were trending into "reasonable" territory. Within the last 2 or 3 weeks it looks like supply is drying up and prices are rising into "stupid" range. What people now face is to slog through some interminable reputation grinds (CB,NW,SCB, and for the truly masochistic R-12), find a group to carry them through gold dungeons (lol), grind plat to afford "stupid" pricing, suffer through PvP, and/or grind EG. I don't mind PvP so much but I can only do so many BG's before it starts to wear on me. Thankfully I only need a few more AMP unlocks. 8000 prestige is a sizable enough chunk for me to grind out that it'll still take some time to finish. :lol: Good one. Strictly speaking? Yes. You really don't want to do end-game instances without them though. It does factor into consideration when Raid Leads assign their teams. If you're not doing instances then sure they're optional. Clear? Maybe if you're a carry. You certainly wouldn't want to be doing progression without them. Maaaybe if you have a buff dps build that completely wrecks your damage output but that's becoming less of an issue. You'd never want to take in a support role without max points. Making all Reputations account-wide would help alleviate this grind. (I think I'm only missing Beloved R-12) Edited April 28, 2016 by PlasmaJohn | |} ---- My Dom Engi has exactly no extra amps / tiers and is more than capable for every end game activity I do. It can put out plenty of DPS for true 20 man WB fights (considering only the proper 20 v WB fights, not the zerg fests), and I have no problems in PvP or what instanced content I do with it. The extra tiers and amps are nice, but by no means a substantial limiting factor for alts or players at large. As for the reputation, I don't like the idea of making it account wide, but I DO love the idea of scaling the absurd time needed to cap a 32k rep zone. Shift it down to 8k for all tiers, or at least 16k needed. It will make dailies more reasonable for alts and still keep in the element of progression. Edited April 28, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- ---- ---- I made all my alts at about the same time, but I absolutely do neglect *playing* them because of ability points and amps. I'm burning out *hard* on the rep grind for those points (not to mention the time it will take to get the rest with EG/plat). Normally my reaction to endgame dailies fatigue in MMOs is to play an alt, but leveling is so fast in this game that playing my alts would just make my problem worse. Right now I have two characters grinding dailies (and one is almost done with the practical reps, so it's mostly just the EG/plat part left for him). If I gave in and played my alts, I'd have a third at 50 *very* quickly, and a total of five characters facing the same sets of dailies in a couple of weeks. Ugh. Regarding the importance of ability/amp points - the norm in every MMO I've played is that one has a full character build before doing endgame content. While by necessity that's not true here, every bit helps and I don't think blowing them off as too grindy to bother with is a viable strategy. :) | |} ---- That's the key right there. You're not doing the content where these points matter. Even with only 20 people World Bosses are a pale shadow of themselves thanks to power creep. They do matter in PvP. If you don't have at least full ability points you're pulling your team down. Of course I'm still in starter blues but I at least know and admit I'm a liability. | |} ---- ---- No offense, but that's a matter of your perception, not reality. They are nice, but ultimately unnecessary and are much less important than gear, runes, and rotation mastery. They are the cherry on top of your character cake, they do nothing for you if you don't have the cake itself (skill / rotation mastery) and the icing (gear and runes) already. If people are seriously this jaded about it I'll make a video of My Medic with full AMP/Tiers and then with all the extras unused. I can generally hit near the top DPS if I focus on it in rated BG's with my engi, though i usually play objectives. Amps / Tiers matter even less in PvP, where you can get away with much more variability in your builds as long as you cover the basics for the strategy you're playing. And your comments on WB's being a shadow of themselves is actually completely wrong. With the F2P transition they were actually ramped up to the max raid tier level, so true 20 man WB fights are mathematically on par with DS level boss fights in terms of stat requirements (obviously not necessarily mechanics). Don't take my word for it, this is directly from Carbine's page on them "With the Reloaded update we’ve reworked world boss encounters—all of which are now max-level raid content". So I don't know what you're getting at. you LITERALLY don't need amp or ability tiers, you didn't even before "powercreep" and IF powercreep makes true WB fights obsolete it also (mathematically) makes DS level content obsolete.. it works both ways (again, search this site for this exact discussion. I had it here long before F2P and back then it mattered just as little; it was a nice carrot to have some progression post levelling, but was unnecessary for any content. Still is) Jeff, are you honestly insisting that you NEED any of the extra's to adequately preform in DS? I know you know better than that, and that I even have to remind people of this is ridiculous. I guess I'll have to make that video after all proving the points are not a major limiting factor. Who cares what guides say? Learn your class, learn your ability synergies, learn what stacks best for your class / playstyle... Just because some one on the internet says something in a guide doesn't make it absolute. Edited April 29, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- I'm saying that DS is designed around you having them. I'm saying it's expected. And I'm saying someone who has them will easily outperform someone who doesn't, assuming both are competent at their classes. And yeah, we'll take people in who are new and still working on getting their points, but this is with the assumption that they are working on getting them ASAP. Most people who are trying to bring their best and learn how to contribute care what the guides say. And it's not about having a guide tell you how to play- the point is, that when guides make assumptions that you have them, it's an INDICATOR as to the importance of them. BTW, most people who try to "learn their class" and do something different from the people who have poured tons of research and effort into the guides end up performing worse than those who can simply read and execute. It is a fool who ignores the hard work of people who have gone before him/her. | |} ---- ---- People making false assumptions doesn't indicate importance of the base of those assumptions. Guides are great, but the game ultimately comes down to two things: Math & your ability to manipulate it to your advantage best both in preparation and real time. Sure others have built guides; many based on trial and error and what the author feels is best. Valuable resources, but at the core, they advise a purely mathematical issue. It benefits one more to understand the math then others experience with it; and personal trial and error is a learning tool all unto itself, and a much more potent one than reading others work IMO (especially if you have already worked through the math before hand). I'm not suggesting you ignore the work of others before you, I'm saying other peoples efforts are no substitute for your own. And again, you're tenuously relying on what amounts to speculation, believing that because many guides are built around a full AMP/Tier spread that they MUST be necessary (thats a logical fallacy) Foul I clearly was talking ONLY about true 20man WB fights (not trains). And While I DON'T raid, that doesn't mean I HAVEN'T. I've run Y-83 before, and I've putzed around in GA a bit on old toons. You guys are honestly telling me an extra 7 tiers (1 extra T8 if you're lucky) and 12 points (one t3 and some change) is more important than gear, runes, and player skill? Are you honestly telling me that? Edited April 29, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- ---- Yes. Certain top dps rotations are impossible without full Ability points. You have a bit more wiggle room with AMPs. | |} ---- ---- ---- Let me guess you run an elec build and target the zerg :rolleyes: ....I know how it rolls (pun intended) on engi, pvp'ed plenty on mine to know. Blue - I wish that were true, but when I see people rune crit/crit sev on a medic (or some other stat besides str/MH/vigor) I cry a bit inside every time, and medic's not the only class I see this happen on. Some people simply can't read their amps. SO while you MAY be a minority, I'd say the guides are here to stay. I am usually helping people daily telling them how to rune properly, and guess what I refer to? GUIDES. Even had one person jump around 3-5k dps because of proper runes (maybe not 2set-wise but at least the proper stats). Now, I am not saying guides are the be-all-end-all, but they are great starting points for most players. The support roles require different stats, but that's besides the point. Edited April 29, 2016 by Bacon_21 | |} ---- Which? And wiggle room =/= necessity The discussion isn't about mechanics (obviously WB mechanics arent the same as raid mecanics) this discussion fundamentally comes down to DPS / HPS / PPS in a pure mathematical context. We are holding player skill and other factors equal and JUST considering the impact of 7 extra tiers and 12 extra amps. I don't need to clear DS to know math, or to plug numbers into matlab and calculate DPS/HPS potentials / averages etc How so for Engi? What do I NEED an extra 7 tiers? I can T8 electrocute just fine with 41 tiers and other skills based on style just fine. Sure the extra 7 is nice, but isn't literally make or break. Thats the implication Jeff. That lack of extra AMPs/Tiers will make your character literally useless. Toss a 41/45 toon in 100 gear, decent runes, and if they know what they are doing they won't fail in GA, build up to 116 gear from there and they'll do fine in DS. Will they be the uber leet super DEEPS? probably not, but they'll perform adeuately as long as the player has a clue about what they are doing and decent-ish runes and a workable rotation. For Medic you essentially ~need~ one T8 (Quantum ) and can get away with just T8 QC and Discharge and T4 Annhilator. The crux of your DPS is going to come with the QC / D synergy and using exposes / recycler abilities to supplement that. It gets better with more amps/tiers, but a Medic with just base (41/45) can properly tier their main rotation and amps just fine. Obviously the extras help and improve your base performance, but being useful and being absolutely necessary are very differnt things. Yes and no, I actually generally run a Bioshell build in PvP, but yes, I do have Electricute in the rotation and have it tiered. That said, I have run multiple builds before, and just happen to like running an AoE / light utility build FTMP I'm not knocking guides, I'm just suggesting that along with guides, players should (at least attempt) to understand what their abilities do, how they function ,and how they synergize with their other abilities. I know not everyone want's to think at all about their abilities and their real efficacy, but we all probably could benefit from considering them more. And yes, proper runes are very important and can absolutely bump DPS up by quite a bit. Having 7 extra tiers is nice, and helps improve the efficacy of your rotation and synergies, but you already have enough with 41 to max your main DD ability and another with change. Most classes CAN get the majority of their DPS from just one / two main abilities (obviously there are more complex builds you can construct with more extra points, but while good, they aren't necessary to perform at adequate levels). Edited April 29, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- Lmao. World trash fights that have little to no mechanics and where 90% of the people have absolutely no clue about their class? Good stuff. For serious progression, full AMPs/abilities are required unless you're carried hard. Having them or not makes a double digit % difference in damage output - progression often enough is a question of a few % or even less. | |} ---- Maybe you are reading in? Not useless, but certainly muted in terms of your ability to contribute to the raid team. As far as my medic is concerned- you are missing the point. I can't even experienced the top-tier rotations and playstyle of the class (actually, I haven't looked into medic, so I assume it's like most other classes) until I have full ability points. I'm not about to pour loads of plat and/or effort into an alt I'm not sure I'll like just to try it out. | |} ---- I'm curious if you've actually done the math, or if you're just claiming that it backs you up. If you haven't yet done the math, I'd like see your analysis of any random skeledroid log. The vast majority of public logs have full ability/amp points on every character in the raid, how many more deaths and how much longer would the fight take if everyone had base amp/ability points? | |} ---- ---- ---- I could have just as easily used a Raid dummy as the example... the full extras help, but don't prevent you from anything Top tier rotations? T8 discharge and Quantum Cascade, Annhilator on T4, This is your basic rotation regardless of Amps / tiers. For raids, medics can coordinate Fissure / probes and swap those out based on who is running, but generally we take Collider and Atomize and fill out the rest based on who else is running with you. Nothing changes as you get more tiers, you can just take Annhilator to T8. Some people play with splitting it to get another ability to t4, but the same basic rotation is there through out, with your primary damage coming from QC/Dis and suplemented with the exposes and damage increases from your rotation synergy. How much longer would the fight take if people stood in more red? If they wore 96 gear instead of 120? Yes I've done the math, and it's highly variable. And that's the point, the variability you get from Gear / skill / runes is greater then the varibaility you get from maxed amps / tiers. Considering many raiders have had capped extras for over a year, perhaps they've forgotten life with out them ;) ? There are a lof of potential reasons people might feel that way, most are based in path dependence and psychology rather than actual NEED. No one denies or argues that they are helpful and very useful... but necessary is a stretch, especially when you have told us it's very possible for some one with out them to clear raids. | |} ---- You've already been told Engi and Slinger. I can add Stalker, Medic and Esper. Would not doubt Warrior too but it's not a class I play enough. But top DPS is not the end-all be-all either. In most fights you need to bring some utility and in some cases the only way to do it is to bring a Tier4 (or Tier8, ugh) utility skill. By "wiggle" I meant that there's a small amount of slack (1 or 2). Not having them -is- a dps, threat, mitigation or focus loss. Not strictly necessary but still something that you have to address sooner rather than later. Don't forget the build shifts you should do when you get both class sets. Of course you can "just spend plat" which according to some simply rains from the heavens :rolleyes: (I've resigned myself to getting bent over so I can get that last Pure Class focus major for my Esper). | |} ---- ---- ---- And thats false, as "told" to me by Jeff, who suggests Slingers indeed don't need all the extras, and by myself, who runs an Engi with 41 tiers and 45 amps to great effect. Also, I call BS on your claim about medics, our rotation is improved with the extras, but not necessarily reliant on them. with 41 tiers you can T8 two abilities and t4 a utility Whats the minimum DPS / HPS you need to do for each fight? Can that be attained with out full extras? Answer: It depends, and Yes. Is it better to have more? OF COURSE. Agreed, and that was essentially my point. They are great to have but you don't NEED them. Edited April 29, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- ---- Of all the things though, that's really the major problem? If that's your thing that's your thing, but between the dyes, pets, mounts, achievements, etc... I'd think those would be the more discouraging to alting. Well YMMV, i doubt they'll change the amp/tier system but who knows. Maybe they'll just get rid of them entirely... I'd really hate that, but if thats what's holding you back and folks make enough noise... Edited April 29, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- ---- Its just funny because most (read: most, obviously not all) players get more emotionally invested in the aesthetics, especially those who really wan't to alt alot. I don't disagree, and that's certainly a good ethic to have. At the same time, some preparations are going to have more impact than others. Of all the things to stress about with a fresh 50 alt, I personally would stress more about gearing and runeing. It would cost me around 200-270p to properly rune and gear a fresh 50 (with both DPS / Support sets), and only about 80-120p to just flat out buy all of the amp/tier points... At least in my view It would be the former, not the latter, that was most daunting to me. But YMMV, hopefully something will get done to make life easier or at least more fun for alt-a-holics | |} ---- ---- For me it is a much bigger problem than a pet collection and the color of my costume since they have no affect on my game play..but trying to run DS without all my abilities means I am not bringing my "A" game. Cosmetics are something I expect to pay for and I am not bothered by the fact that my mounts aren't account bound. But a mind numbing rep grind for every toon means turning 50 is a lot more work than just learning your class (which is harder to do without your "final" rotation) and getting gear which is fun and not a chore IMO. I don't want to be handed everything as soon as I hit 50 but I don't think it should be a chore either, sharing elder gems would make a decent balance IMO Same here, I like to know that I am pulling my weight, I feel like a total scrub running my Ilvl99 Slinger alt with one extra ability point but I have been because I need the plat to buy more points. God forbid you need to bring an amped ability, I barely have enough amps to get to the third tier much less bring Void Pact and do enough DPS to make a difference. | |} ---- I utterly depend on the extra plat generation that EG capping provides. I would hate a shared EG pool. | |} ---- Ugh, my parade has been peed on :D I depend on that cap too and I honestly hadn't thought too hard about the specifics other than wanting to spend the mountain of EG's that my main has on amps and abilities for my alts. I suppose sharing the EG wouldn't necessarily create a problem if each toon still had it's own cap but simply the ability to mail EG to their alts like you can money...although it would have to be account bound like omnibits rather than regular plat so you couldn't send it to other people....or...umm ....Obviously there are lots of intricacies and specifics that haven't been thought out but my brain is mush from trying to farm rep for 2 new alts. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Yeah, I find it pretty silly that we have a currency tab, and yet we still end up with currencies that take up inventory space. | |} ---- ---- This. Or at least give us a currency tab in the tradeskills bag so we don't have to clutter our main bags... | |} ---- ----